Denver & Rio Grande (1952) User Reviews

Colorful piece of history colorized in scenery and in facts.

[mark.waltz · 5/10 · 12 August 2016]

Hollywood usually gets the details of history all wrong, whether it be miscasting the actors and distorting the facts. This does more of the later, but why quibble? It's an interesting piece of western fable told with gusto and taste, well cast and quite entertaining.

The American west always looks its best in color, with the mountain greenery and blue skies smiling down on the settlers. That little piece of prose as as authentic as the story here of two rival railroad companies dealing with the competition in completely different ways. Edmund O'Brien represents the more ethical of the two, while a bearded Sterling Hayden represents the more ruthless of the two.

This is highlighted by a train collision head on, with Zasu Pitts amusing as a lovelorn cook. Linda Elliott, who went onto a career on T.V. as Kasey Rogers, is a vengeance seeking young woman who gets in the good graces of O'Brien with a hidden agenda. It's a fast moving A western that may not have all the facts, but at least provides steady entertainment and pretty visuals.

I've Been Working On the Railroad...

[bsmith5552 · 6/10 · 27 June 2002]

"Denver & Rio Grande" is probably best remembered for its spectacular head on crash of two vintage trains. Reportedly, two actual trains were used in the sequence. I don't think there were any re-takes.

The plot is the old one about the two competing railroads trying to outdo the other by nook or by crook. Edmond O'Brien (it's about THAT hat) is the trouble shooter for the Denver & Rio Grande. Dean Jagger is the head man and J. Carroll Naish the designing engineer. Laura Elliott is the love interest who thinks that O'Brien shot her brother (Don Haggerty), but of course he didn't. Because of her belief she has been feeding critical information to baddies Sterling Hayden and Lyle Bettger. It all leads to the final showdown featuring the above-mentioned crash and Elliott finding out who the real killer was. Zasu Pitts and Paul Fix (as the stereo-typical Irish engineer) provide the comedy relief.

"Denver & Rio Grande" is full of spectacular scenery and railroad shots that will satisfy the most avid train lover. And there's the crash. A better than average 50's western.

Train Tribulations.

[hitchcockthelegend · 7/10 · 12 January 2017]

Denver and Rio Grande is directed by Byron Haskin and written by Frank Gruber. It stars Edmond O'Brien, Sterling Hayden, Dean Jagger, Kasey Rogers, Lyle Bettger and J. Carol Naish. Music is by Paul Sawtell and Technicolor cinematography by Ray Rennahan.

Two railroad companies battle for the right of way through Royal Gorge - with murderous results...

In truth it's without doubt that the scenery on offer here, and if you happen to have any kink for olde steam trains, are what puts this in the above average department. Plot is based around real instances during the advancements of the Denver and Rio Grande railway. It plays out for entertainment purposes as baddies against goodies and as a notable observation of what some will do to get their way. There's strands involving wrongful accusations, simmering passions and a whole host of train sequences snaking through gorgeous locations. There's even some amazing train carnage, which is thrilling and more potent as it's not model work on show. Cast are fine and turning in perfs that we accept as viable for our enjoyment - with a pat on the back for Zasu Pitts and Paul Fix who are playing out a cute and funny mature courtship in the making - and all other tech contributions are safe and appealing enough.

Opening with a voice over narration set to scenes of the then modern D&RG railway, before whisking us back to its formative years, this is a nice nostalgia piece that overcomes its plotting failings courtesy of big heart and ocular delights. 7/10

I still liked it.

[aplasmeier · 7/10 · 7 January 2009]

There were some weak points to this film that could have easily been fixed or edited and they probably should of. First of all the way Nelson is killed- how can you be convinced you shot someone when you were fist fighting them? Second of all the fact that Linda was the sister of Bob Nelson should have been saved to be revealed to the audience when it was revealed to Jim Vesser after the trains crashed. It would keep the audience in suspense and wondering where she's riding off to and why. And finally the head on collision between two old narrow gauge steam locomotives. Since they were capturing such an amazing scene the filming makers should have set up multiple cameras to capture that awesome crash. A couple close up shots would have been so much better than the single shot from far away. All in all I love this movie. Even though the script was empty at times the work put in to get those spectacular shots of the trains and the mountains made up for it.

Typical 1950's Railway Western

[toowoomba · 7/10 · 23 January 2005]

What we have here is the typical western shoot-up between two rival railway companies attempting to build through the Colorado Rockies. What makes this film somewhat unique is the head-on collision of two trains engineered by the "bad guys." The collision is for real! The Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad provided two narrow-gage trains that we destined for the scrap-heap for the Big Scene. With adequate dynamite placed on the engines, the crash was carried off. There were, obviously, no re-takes. After close-ups, the engines were hauled off to the steel-mills at Pueblo. A good Western that rail buffs will appreciate.

Lots of Action

[dougdoepke · 24 February 2015]

Rousing locomotor from Paramount (can't call it an oater since there are no horses). The action rarely lets up as two railroad companies compete for most scenic rail line in the mountain west. Jim (O'Brien) works for the D&RG, while McCabe heads up the CC&SJ (Canon City & San Juan). Trouble is McCabe's outfit doesn't care what they have to do to win. Plus, they've got a spy in Jim's camp, so they've got a big advantage. But don't count out the D&RG, since Jim's road gang knows how to fight back, and is headed up by a general, no less.

Pudgy O'Brien may look more like a San Francisco barfly (DOA {1950}) than a leader of men, but he's plenty spirited. And get a load of that great mountain scenery. I may be mistaken, but I think the whole time is spent along the rail line, so we get lots of alpine views. Clearly, the producers knew what the draw was. Sure, developments are sometimes either obscure or don't make much sense. But the action quickly moves on, so it's hard to get stuck. The centerpiece head-on between two speeding locomotives remains an eye-catcher, even though the enhancing explosives are pretty apparent.

All in all, the 80-some minutes add up to a visual treat, but don't expect much in the way of extended dialogue. The language here is action, not words.

(In passing-- There's a commemorative statue of General Palmer, founder of the D&RG, astride a steed in downtown Colorado Springs. Thus his name remains well known in the area.)

Who's Got the right of way?

[bkoganbing · 5/10 · 4 February 2006]

The Denver and the Rio Grande is purportedly the story of the construction of that line financed by Dean Jagger, designed by J. Carrol Naish and constructed by Edmond O'Brien. They meet some stiff opposition from the the bad railroad where Sterling Hayden and Lyle Bettger run things.

With some elements taken from films like Union Pacific and Saratoga Trunk, Denver and the Rio Grande is entertaining, but not consistently. Part of the plot is where the baddies convince Edmond O'Brien he killed Don Haggerty. They do a weak job of it in my opinion. Unfortunately that weakness leads to some rather silly motivation on the part of other characters.

What is nice is the good Rocky Mountain location photography and two very good performances by Zasu Pitts and Paul Fix in sidekick roles. They have a very cute romance going and at times they're better than the leads.

Above average Western based on real history

[vincentlynch-moonoi · 7/10 · 14 March 2015]

It's always good when a movie is filmed on location, as this is. Well, wait a minute. It's sort of filmed on location. The real incidents on which this film is based took place on the eastern edge of the Rockies, on the Royal Gorge Route of the railway. This was filmed mostly near Durango, on the western side of Colorado's Rockies. Okay, not bad, just about 220 miles off, but if you know Colorado, it makes a difference. The Royal Gorge area is relatively arid, while the Durango area is not arid, so the look is all wrong.

Nevertheless, this is a pretty good fictionalized story about a real incident in Colorado railroad history. Incidentally, you can still ride part of the Royal Gorge Route out of Canon City, Colorado, and it's a swell journey about an authentic train.

This was a Paramount flick, and a rather big budget production from a company that didn't typically make very many Westerns. It isn't the smoothest production you'll ever watch, but it's still an above average Western. And, the train collision is very well done and looks very real...not sure how they did it.

The male star is Edmond O'Brien. O'Brien was usually a supporting actor, but occasionally showed up in a leading role. I always liked him, but he probably missed the A list simply because he was a bit chunky. Sterling Hayden was the lead bad guy, and does fairly well here. I always liked Dean Jagger, who plays General Palmer, the railroad owner here, but this is not one of his better portrayals. Kasey Rogers is the chief female actor here, a decidedly B list actress, but she does fairly well as a woman torn between revenge and loyalty. Lyle Bettger plays the real heavy here, and I have to say, after watching him a couple of years ago during the same year in "The Greatest Show On Earth", he was a bit of a cornball as an all too bad villain -- overacting in both roles, to the point of being the caricature of villainy. J. Carrol Naish was a good character actor, and does nicely here as the engineer (as in construction) of the railway. Zasu Pitts and Paul Fix are along for a few laughs as a rather dowdy romantic couple.

I can't make up my mind whether this film is a very, very good B Western, or a so-so A Western. But if you like Westerns at all, this one -- based on real history -- is well worth watching at least once.

Edmond O'Brien in a more cerebral role!

[planktonrules · 4/10 · 27 September 2012]

This film begins with some very bad narration. Not only is it unnecessary, but the guy's voice sounds very phony and it adds nothing positive to the picture. It also comes off like an advertisement for the Denver & Rio Grande Railway! The film is a completely fictionalized account of the building of the railroad. In this story, forces of evil (a competing railway) are conspiring to stop the railroad from being built. So, it's up to a tough guy (Edmond O'Brien) to make sure the line is built--and O'Brien is more than willing to beat the stuffing out of anyone who gets in his way....or shoot him! He's one of the most pugnacious characters I've ever seen O'Brien play--a man who has all the patience of Bluto! Early in the film, two evil guys working for the competition attack O'Brien*. And, one of them (Sterling Hayden) shoots at O'Brien and accidentally kills his partner in crime--and blames O'Brien. Well, although O'Brien is acquitted in the case, he's lost his confidence and spends the next 15 minutes in the film coming up with excuses NOT to return to his job. Eventually, however, he does and it's back to punchin' and scrappin' to make sure the men do their part. As for the baddies, they dynamite the hills, rob the payroll and do lots of other things to disrupt progress.

Now into this mix is a clichéd woman--a woman who KNOWS absolutely nothing but seems to think she knows everything. She and O'Brien instantly HATE each other--therefore you know they'll be in love by the end of the film. Another woman (Zasu Pitts) is in the film...for no discernible reason whatsoever. Pitts, I think, MAY have been intended as comic relief--but all her scenes had nothing to do with the plot and she's more an annoyance than anything else.

So it any good? Well, not really. But the film has very nice scenery and my uncle (who watched the film with me) said this line makes a terrific trip--as he's done the trip from Silverton to Durango. So, at least we got to talk about how pretty southwest Colorado is...though we both got a bit bored by the clichés and silly writing in "Denver and Rio Grande".

*By the way, although I love Edmond O'Brien films, the idea of him beating up TWO guys (one of which is the humongous and well-muscled Sterling Hayden) at the same time is quite laughable. In fact, I remember chuckling through this silly scene.

A far-fetched layout, however enough good western!!!!

[elo-equipamentos · 6/10 · 28 October 2019]

Despite the picture was based on real facts, the producers changed the names of two Companies involved in the past, however the screenplay introduces a far-fetched layout, the both leading roles Edmond O'Brien as Jim Vesser plays a violent man, always yelling louder to impose through the force his point of view, Sterling Hayden fits in the same character, however was supposedly on wrong side, the plot looks like a bit contrived somehow, but the gorgeous presence of the Kasey Rogers as Linda Prescott relief the a little bit, meanwhile the old couple Paul Fix and Zazu Pitts are a separate chapter, bringing humor and warm romance, the crash of the two old locomotives is a true highlights, the casting is fabulous, having in Dean Jagger as General Palmer a reliable Boss, there a lot of action, fights, blowouts, betrayal, murders, anyway a fine picture!!

Resume:

First watch: 2019 / How many: 1 / Source: DVD-R / Rating: 6.5

All the Talent Can't Redeem Tired Western

[boblipton · 5/10 · 21 June 2018]

A first I thought this was an Allied Artists production: overblown script about the building of the titular railroad, Edmond O'Brien in the lead.... but no, it was a Paramount production, one of their A Westerns that seem overblown, despite an appealing cast, including Dean Jagger, personal favorite Zasu Pitts, Sterling Hayden (at the start of his "I'll say the line, but don't expect me to care" phase) and a spectacular railroad crash that used two actual engines. Ka-boom! Cute ingenue Kasey Rogers is spying for bad-guy Hayden (for a competing line) because she thinks D&RG people killed her brother, but she and O'Brien keep making goo-goo eyes at each other when they think the other isn't looking.

I wasn't terribly impressed. It looked like a DeMille Western epic from the 1930s, but without the mythic characters, and it's too visually perfect, shot on site in the clean air of Colorado by former cameraman Byron Haskins and ace Technicolor specialist Ray Rennahan, meant to show off the the bright, accurate colors of fresh paint and clean clothes and green leaves that Technicolor could bring to the screen, like a mid-30s Warner Brothers short.

I'm more interested in story and character than sheer spectacle, and the story and characters here are standard, while the spectacle (train crash aside) had all been done before. That leaves the outdoor photography around the tracks, and while the natural scenery is frequently beautiful, an hour and a half is pretty long for a travelogue. Despite the talent and effort, it winds up a pompous, overblown B Western.

Rival Railroads Collide Head-On -- Literally And Figuratively

[oldblackandwhite · 8/10 · 6 December 2012]

Denver & Rio Grande is one of those entertaining 1950's "B-plus" Westerns -- that is a "B" picture cast but top-notch "A" production values. This Technicolor oater about a right-away shooting war between rival railway companies actually qualifies as a minor classic of the genre. Not for the dramatic acting or Frank Gruber's average screen play, but because of high powered action sequences in, on, and around authentic 19th Century railroad rolling stock, all enveloped in gloriously scenic Colorado Rocky Mountain locations.

Unlikely leading man Edmond O'Brien is one of yours truly's favorite actors, whether he is in a lead or a supporting role. But Eddy looks somewhat uncomfortable in his Western togs, even a little peaked at times, as if all that Rocky Mountain sunshine and fresh air disagreed with his constitution. Could be he was wishing to be back in one of those dimly lighted, smoke-filled, noir bars which were his more typical cinema habitat. A much more familiar face to the celluloid Western environment, tall, stiff actor Sterling Hayden is cast against type here as the ruthless leader of the bad guys. You may have thought Hayden was stiff in his more typical heroic roles, but as a villain in Denver & Rio Grande, he's so wooden it's difficult to distinguish him from one of the telegraph poles. Dean Jagger, as real-life railroad builder General William J. Palmer, adds a touch of class to the cast, but doesn't have much to do. He looks like he's about to go to sleep through most of the picture, but as always, he has his moments. On the other hand leading lady Laura Elliot (aka Kasey Rogers), best known for her role in popular TV sitcom Bewitched, shows a little spark as the General's pretty secretary with a grudge against O'Brien. The ever reliable J. Carrol Naish, often seen as a gangster or a cynical cop, refreshingly gets a sympathetic, clean-cut role as the nattily attired railroad construction engineer. But never mind, the real stars of this picture are gorgeous Rocky Mountain scenery and the thrilling, nostalgic steam locomotives.

If the dramatic acting of the fine cast did not seem up to par, you can blame flabby direction by director Byron Haskin, who was more of a special effects technician than a director anyway. But once the action sequences start, Haskin is in his element. Denver & Rio Grande is nothing if not action-packed, and isn't that what we all love in Westerns? When the two railroad companies get serious about going after each other, they employ military tactics along with prolific volleys of (mostly inaccurate) gunfire from railroad cars to take and re-take miles of track and telegraph stations. One of the top action scenes is the actual "head-on collision of two bull locomotives", as it was heavily advertised at the time of the picture's 1952 release. The result is not disappointing, though Haskin cheated a bit with a dynamite explosion at the point of impact to make the shock of collision more spectacular. He really had to. Those old locomotives were such solidly constructed masses of steel, they could have just bounced apart without showing much apparent damage or the desired boiler explosions. By the way, as a minor point, this much ballyhooed train wreck does not happen at the climax of the movie, as stated by Leonard Maltin and others. It is one of the events building toward the climax, and it occurs quite some time before the end of the picture.

Denver & Rio Grande is a nicely turned out Western. The sets are very good, though most of the scenes are filmed in the great outdoors. Costumes are true to the time, place, and occupation of the characters. Particularly impressive were the authentic looking six-gun leather and the colorful variety of hats. The chubby O'Brien liked to foster an everyman image, and he did little to improve his unglamorous looks. Here his rough working man outfit includes a floppy black hat which looks as if it has been roundly stomped on by a couple of overweight saloon floozies. But it is the trains steaming around the mountains, the water tanks, stations, piles of cross-ties, telegraphs, and other supporting railroad equipment that really grab the eye. The excellent train sound effects made all of this as stimulating to hear as to see.

For all its flaws this is a highly entertaining picture. If you are a fan of exciting, flavorful Western action with chugging, puffing, hissing, clanging, whistling, steaming, smoke-belching, greasy, sooty, oil-dripping, jerking, screeching, cinder-flinging Nineteenth Century trains -- and how could anyone not be -- Denver & Rio Grande will take you where you can find it!

Opposing railroads vie for same track space

[helpless_dancer · 7/10 · 22 March 2000]

Two railroad construction crews go head to head in getting a new line through to the west. One crew is filled with dirty rotten scalawags who stop at nothing to fulfill their duty. The other group are square shooters who just want to do an honest days work for an honest days pay. They meet for the final showdown in an explosive ending. Good western filmed in beautiful mountain country.

What a hat?

[Western · 2/10 · 2 May 2019]

First I'd like to know who put that foolish hat on mr. O'brien,??? It's hard to get past it. I dont know the real story, the facts before Hollywood got a hold of them, but I hope they had nothing to do with the movie. O'Brien is angry most of the time. What a cast! Excellent! Movie just didn't make use of all the talent.

Pretty typical 50's fare

[Marta · 13 March 1999]

Pretty standard 50's action-western with a railroading theme. Edmund O'Brien's team of men are trying to build a rail line through the mountains, and dirty-dealing Sterling Hayden's men are trying to build their line first by sabotaging the other group. Lots of trains and mountain scenery, and not much else.

Landslides, robberies and shootings abound, but despite the action the poor actors can't do much with the dead-end script. Dean Jagger is always good, and Paul Fix and Zasu Pitts are the comic relief as the broadly Irish train engineer and the camp cook who keeps trying to get Fix to propose to her. If you like trains and beautiful scenery, this is a decent movie.

Unremarkable...Studio-Sytem Bred Mediocrity...Early Days of Rail Road Competition

[LeonLouisRicci · 6/10 · 29 March 2022]

The Still Viable, but Losing Power Exponentially, the Studio System, in 1952 was More than Capable of Culling Contract Players and Film-Makers that could Produce this Type of Mass-Market-Movie-Making with Ease.

The Clock-Work Synthesis of Talent was Given the Wholly Approved Script and Production Notes and Everyone Dutifully "Punched the Clock" Until Work was Over.

The Movie Studios had won Complete and Legal Control Over Each and Every Production.

But the Motion Picture Code was the Overseer of Every Studio.

In the 1950's the System began to Show Signs of Weakness and 20 Years Later would be Gone (Replaced by the Ratings System) with the Wind of Independent Film-Makers.

So, By the Numbers, Formula, and Stagnant Stuff became the "State of the Art".

But the Art of Film had been "Deadened" and the Signs of Impending Doom were Everywhere.

This Film is an Example of the Best Mediocrity that Money could Buy.

No Inspiration or Creativity is Evident Beyond Basic "Manufacturing" a Product Guaranteed to Make a Profit Ruffling No Feathers in the Process.

There's Beautiful Scenery, a Rapid Exchange of Tit for Tat Sabotage and Brawling, Comedy Shenanigans, and it Squeezes the Romance so Tight it Barely Fits.

A High-Light is the Final Head-On Clash of the Competitive Rail Roads.

The Film Certainly isn't a "Train-Wreck", but it isn't Anything Remarkable.

Just Mediocre Movie-Making.

Note...Edmond O' Brien is Miscast and Sterling Hayden is a Vacant Entity.

Strong Technicolor cinematography, standard acting

[adrianovasconcelos · 6/10 · 29 September 2023]

Diretor Byron Haskin manages to keep DENVER & RIO GRANDE interesting in spite of a patchy script. To that end, he relies on praiseworthy Technicolor cinematography by Ray Rennahan, with the train crash the outstanding sequence, thanks in particular to superior editing from Stanley E. Johnson. That said, the mountainous landscape is breath-taking, and the locomotives and boxcars absolutely gorgeous (interesting to note that some railroad companies in the late 19th century announced planned train crashes well in advance to scrap old and weaker locomotives, which also worked as publicity).

Ed O'Brien and Dean Jagger show good form, and are matched to some extent by the rather more wooden Sterling Hayden and Lyle Bettger. Sadly, "double agent" Kasey Rogers and the famous Zasu Pitts do not seem comfortable in their parts, though the latter gets the comic relief part.

I liked the film - at 90 min, it is a bit long for a B production, but then it feels like B+. 6/10.

Off the rails!

[hoovie70 · 3/10 · 17 September 2018]

Great cast derailed by horrible script. Nearly two hours of my life that I'll never get back.

A documentary on this film.

[jhaugh · 9/10 · 31 May 2009]

There is a promotional film for "America's last narrow gauge passenger train" that includes scenes on the making of this film. The film is titled "Journey to Yesterday" and does not seem to be listed on the IMDb. Starting in Durango, this film follows the tourist train on it's journey to yesterday. At one point it reaches the location where the "Denver and Rio Grande" movie is being made. It has extensive coverage of the actors at work and especially the "day for night" cinematography being used for some of the movie's night scenes. It also shows the preparation work for the filming of the train collision right up to the collision itself. During the 1990's this film was available on video tape but a recent (2009) check of Amazon.com indicates that this tape is no longer available.

Head-on collision

[jarrodmcdonald-1 · 22 February 2022]

The story is about an intense rivalry between two competing rail lines. Their rivalry is depicted in the personal conflicts that develop between the characters played by Edmond O'Brien and Sterling Hayden. From the first few minutes of the story, we know that Hayden is playing a villain, since he frames O'Brien for a killing that he has committed.

O'Brien's character is not prosecuted for some inexplicable reason, but he faces wrath from the dead man's sister (portrayed by Kasey Rogers, billed as Laura Elliott).

After the opening prologue is finished, Hayden remains off screen for large chunks of time during the first half of the movie. But he plays a huge part in the second half, since his bad deeds set in motion a very memorable standoff between the two railroad companies. Hayden seems to relish this role, knowing that shady characters can be more fun to play.

I have to admit that the first half of the movie plods along a bit slowly, since there is a lot of character-driven stuff involving O'Brien and his boss (Dean Jagger). Figuring into this is the boss's secretary (Elliott) who wants justice for her late brother's death. Kasey Rogers/Laura Elliott is a very beautiful and decent actress who reminds me a lot of Grace Kelly here.

She has a very difficult scene near the end, where she realizes she's been misled by Hayden and his crony Lyle Bettger. Quickly she must set things right and help the Denver & Rio Grande railroad succeed.

The film benefits from excellent Technicolor cinematography, shot on location in the timeless mountain region of Durango, Colorado. There is also some amusing comic relief provided by ZaSu Pitts and Paul Fix. But it's that heart-pounding finale, involving the head-on collision of two steam locomotives that is truly gripping.

Great B western

[searchanddestroy-1 · 8/10 · 27 November 2022]

What's the common link between directors Jack Arnold, Kurt Neuman and Byron Haskin? Three film makers whom the budgets allowed to them were not enough to give great A movies, but good movies though, certainly not Z junks...The common point is that those three were above all, science fiction specialists, at least it was sci-fi stuff that made them famous. Kurt neuman for THE FLY, KRONOS, ROCKETSHIP XM; Jack Arnold:TARANTULA, INCREDIBLE SHRINKING MAN, MONSTER ON THE CAMPUS, IT CAME FROM OUTER SPACE; and Byron Haskin: WAR OF THE WORLDS, CONQUEST OF SPACE, ROBINSON CRUSOE ON MARS, FROM EARTH TO THE MOON..And all those three also made good solid westerns too. Arnold: NO NAME ON THE BULLET, MAN FROM BITTER RIDGE...Kurt Neuman, KID FROM TEXAS, MOHAWK and Haskin: this very one, WARPATH, SILVER CITY, FIRST TEXAN...That said, this one is my favourite from Haskin, with also SILVER CITY, plenty of action, plus the splendid locations, and an awesome photography. I don't even speak of this cast, with Sterling Hayden and a surprising villain role. A villain far more charismatic than the good lead but bland Edmond O'Brien.... I forgot Nathan Juran, also provider of westerns with Audie Murphy - and not only - but also great science fiction films: DEADLY MANTIS, TWENTY MILLIONS MILES TO EARTH. Edward Bernds, also good B director in westerns and science fiction, but at a lesser scale than Arnold, Haskin and Neuman.